A quick shout-out to xn
xn is way too kind with his praise here, but one thing’s for sure – his take on my education screed the other day really illustrated why the comment threads are often the best part of the blog experience. Take a second to track his response and note my add-on…
lullaby pit 
Sam, I really enjoyed that thread. You hit the nail on the head, and posted a great response.
My family must be an exception as I tend to worry much more about my son’s rankings, etc. than he does. Even though he gets excellent grades, he gets angry when I discuss them with him, or anyone else. My lovely wife must have done something right when she insisted on John learning just for the sake of learning.
At his school, they do teach the kids to think, and that makes spending $31K a year for high school worth it.
Great earlier post.
Aloha,
Jeff
Sam, I really enjoyed that thread. You hit the nail on the head, and posted a great response.
My family must be an exception as I tend to worry much more about my son’s rankings, etc. than he does. Even though he gets excellent grades, he gets angry when I discuss them with him, or anyone else. My lovely wife must have done something right when she insisted on John learning just for the sake of learning.
At his school, they do teach the kids to think, and that makes spending $31K a year for high school worth it.
Great earlier post.
Aloha,
Jeff
This is another point. What we’re describing is how it is with the public school world and most colleges, but I feel certain that the higher you climb into the world of the elite schools the less a problem the “can’t think” issue becomes.
I’d hate to be a parent right now looking at my alternatives. It’s good that you can afford to send your kid to a place where he’s learning skills that are going to set him SO far ahead of his peers. It’s a shame that such an education has to cost so much and that it represents the exception rather than the rule. America is not going to be well-served by this….
This is another point. What we’re describing is how it is with the public school world and most colleges, but I feel certain that the higher you climb into the world of the elite schools the less a problem the “can’t think” issue becomes.
I’d hate to be a parent right now looking at my alternatives. It’s good that you can afford to send your kid to a place where he’s learning skills that are going to set him SO far ahead of his peers. It’s a shame that such an education has to cost so much and that it represents the exception rather than the rule. America is not going to be well-served by this….
I have an opinion of public schools after teaching in a community college. The parents use the schools as a babysitting service. The parents also let their kids set the level of expectations, not the parent. I was watching “The Mind of Mencia” the other night when he was talking about education. He asked an Oriental kid in the audience if his parents would beat the shit out of him if he brought home poor grades….the kid laughed and said, “Yes.”
I was looking at some breakdowns for financial aid at Exeter. 70% of the students get some type of aid. A friend of my son, from a lower income household pays $4000 for tuition, room and board. That’s pretty accessable for anyone who really wants a first rate education. Jesuit schools also teach you how to think, and give good bang for the buck.
Just remember, that most public school teachers are union employees, just like the guy on the Ford Assembly line….and they try to produce models just like Ford.
Aloha,
Jeff
I have an opinion of public schools after teaching in a community college. The parents use the schools as a babysitting service. The parents also let their kids set the level of expectations, not the parent. I was watching “The Mind of Mencia” the other night when he was talking about education. He asked an Oriental kid in the audience if his parents would beat the shit out of him if he brought home poor grades….the kid laughed and said, “Yes.”
I was looking at some breakdowns for financial aid at Exeter. 70% of the students get some type of aid. A friend of my son, from a lower income household pays $4000 for tuition, room and board. That’s pretty accessable for anyone who really wants a first rate education. Jesuit schools also teach you how to think, and give good bang for the buck.
Just remember, that most public school teachers are union employees, just like the guy on the Ford Assembly line….and they try to produce models just like Ford.
Aloha,
Jeff
I’m the last guy to defend the world of organized labor, although the way some businesses conduct affairs I can certainly see the appeal. And way too many teachers out there are just atrocious. At a lot of colleges, when they find out that somebody is majoring in elementary ed they laugh like they would if a football player had just announced that he was taking basket weaving. When I was at Iowa State, “I’m an el/ed major” translated roughly into “I’m dumb as a sack of hammers.”
But honestly, it just ain’t that simple. I know way too many economic conservatives who seem to be hugely aware of the basics of market dynamics, but when the subject turns to public ed they seem to lose sight of a basic law. You get what you pay for.
We live in a society where teaching doesn’t pay worth a fuck, and then we’re amazed that our brightest and best don’t beat down the doors for a chance to teach. A lot of smart people do make the sacrifice, of course, but across the board it shakes out like any econ professor would predict.
Our answer to the suck problem is even more amazing. Instead of addressing the disease – money – we conclude that the solution is to pile even MORE administrativa and crap on top of teachers. Accountability, etc. Fine idea in principle, but in reality what happens is that this drives off the top few percent who can make better livings with half the headache and realize that they’ve finally had enough. The only ones who are left are the ones who can’t get out, and the extra piles of crap on them do little aside from making them even worse than they were to start with.
In other words, we have constructed a system that’s performing exactly like it ought to. Low pay, high pain-in-the-ass factor, and a repidly diminishing personal and cultural commitment to education (on this part of your argument you’re not only right, you’re right times a million, btw) is going to attract people who lack the ability to do better.
I know some pub school teachers, and I wouldn’t have their job at twice the salary they’re paid. Literally.
I’m the last guy to defend the world of organized labor, although the way some businesses conduct affairs I can certainly see the appeal. And way too many teachers out there are just atrocious. At a lot of colleges, when they find out that somebody is majoring in elementary ed they laugh like they would if a football player had just announced that he was taking basket weaving. When I was at Iowa State, “I’m an el/ed major” translated roughly into “I’m dumb as a sack of hammers.”
But honestly, it just ain’t that simple. I know way too many economic conservatives who seem to be hugely aware of the basics of market dynamics, but when the subject turns to public ed they seem to lose sight of a basic law. You get what you pay for.
We live in a society where teaching doesn’t pay worth a fuck, and then we’re amazed that our brightest and best don’t beat down the doors for a chance to teach. A lot of smart people do make the sacrifice, of course, but across the board it shakes out like any econ professor would predict.
Our answer to the suck problem is even more amazing. Instead of addressing the disease – money – we conclude that the solution is to pile even MORE administrativa and crap on top of teachers. Accountability, etc. Fine idea in principle, but in reality what happens is that this drives off the top few percent who can make better livings with half the headache and realize that they’ve finally had enough. The only ones who are left are the ones who can’t get out, and the extra piles of crap on them do little aside from making them even worse than they were to start with.
In other words, we have constructed a system that’s performing exactly like it ought to. Low pay, high pain-in-the-ass factor, and a repidly diminishing personal and cultural commitment to education (on this part of your argument you’re not only right, you’re right times a million, btw) is going to attract people who lack the ability to do better.
I know some pub school teachers, and I wouldn’t have their job at twice the salary they’re paid. Literally.
I agree with the insightful assessment you made, to a point.
I’m for paying the teachers more money, only if they produce better results. I’m also for the streamlining of the bureacuracy endemic in most school systems. I support vouchers so people can yank their kids out of non performing schools. I’m on the side of the student, not the teacher or parent.
We should start applying true market forces to schools. It does work as in the example of the trade schools such as IIT-Tech and DeVry. They are for profit schools(and apply market forces) that will teach you a decent trade virtually guaranteeing you a decent job.
I really shouldn’t be talking about the plight of the public schools, as I never went to one. I did teach in a Community College last year and found it to be a joke. I spent 45% of my actual time there non-teaching; filling out reports, plans, indexes, rubrics, and all of that other paperwork that should be bulldozed into a pit and set aflame.
I really think that school starts at home. We adopted a high bar with our son, and have encouraged him to vault it many times. We then set the bar a little higher. This year, he’s working on more Ancient Greek, already having passed all of the Latin classes the school offers. I’m not trying to brag(maybe a little), but our methods of child rearing have brought excellent results…..with a kid that’s as happy as they come, with no visible neuroses.
Since the government is so big, I’ll cross one of my conservative lines. We should add a program that rewards the uneducated lower classes that are having kids with some type of incentive to read to their kids, teach them, and turn off that Goddam TV. Kids fostered in an environment of learning do much better than the kids you see at the mall who all wear black.
For us, right now, we’re solely focused on our son. He just found out that he can’t get early decision at Harvard as they have done away with it. Harvard won’t be accepting applications until Jan 1. My son’s upper Master told me that John’s a lock to getting in there. I’m still insisting on a few other “Safety Schools.” I only hope he uses his education wisely.
Aloha,
Jeff
I agree with the insightful assessment you made, to a point.
I’m for paying the teachers more money, only if they produce better results. I’m also for the streamlining of the bureacuracy endemic in most school systems. I support vouchers so people can yank their kids out of non performing schools. I’m on the side of the student, not the teacher or parent.
We should start applying true market forces to schools. It does work as in the example of the trade schools such as IIT-Tech and DeVry. They are for profit schools(and apply market forces) that will teach you a decent trade virtually guaranteeing you a decent job.
I really shouldn’t be talking about the plight of the public schools, as I never went to one. I did teach in a Community College last year and found it to be a joke. I spent 45% of my actual time there non-teaching; filling out reports, plans, indexes, rubrics, and all of that other paperwork that should be bulldozed into a pit and set aflame.
I really think that school starts at home. We adopted a high bar with our son, and have encouraged him to vault it many times. We then set the bar a little higher. This year, he’s working on more Ancient Greek, already having passed all of the Latin classes the school offers. I’m not trying to brag(maybe a little), but our methods of child rearing have brought excellent results…..with a kid that’s as happy as they come, with no visible neuroses.
Since the government is so big, I’ll cross one of my conservative lines. We should add a program that rewards the uneducated lower classes that are having kids with some type of incentive to read to their kids, teach them, and turn off that Goddam TV. Kids fostered in an environment of learning do much better than the kids you see at the mall who all wear black.
For us, right now, we’re solely focused on our son. He just found out that he can’t get early decision at Harvard as they have done away with it. Harvard won’t be accepting applications until Jan 1. My son’s upper Master told me that John’s a lock to getting in there. I’m still insisting on a few other “Safety Schools.” I only hope he uses his education wisely.
Aloha,
Jeff
But here I still think you’re doing what way too many economic conservatives are doing. You’re getting caught up in the politics that have emerged from a system you’re unhappy with and strapping baggage onto the market idea.
The PURE market answer to this problem is MY suggestion – pump more money into teacher salaries. You won’t show dramatic results in the first year, but you will in five, so long as the system is set to retain good teachers and dismiss bad ones over time.
The how is simple. Say I want to hire 100 people to work for me, and I need people of at least X ability in order to succeed. The average salary that a person of X ability can command in the marketplace is $40,000/year. I’m offering $30K.
I’m GOING to attract sub-par workers. People of X ability aren’t going to apply. I’m going to wind up with a couple Xs and a whole bunch of X-1s and X-2s. My business is going to suffer, and piling a lot of “accountability” bureaucracy on them is going to make them LESS productive, not more, and it’s also going to deter the rare Xs who are tempted to apply from doing so.
If, on the other hand, I pay $50,000, I’m going to attract a pool where I can choose from Xs, X+1s, X+2s, and maybe even some X+3s. My need for bureaucracy diminishes, as I’m now hiring people who don’t have to be cornered like rats to perform.
This IS market-driven thinking, and I marvel at how many conservatives don’t seem to realize it. Higher level exec types understand the dynamic perfectly when the conversation is about their own compensation packages, but when talk turns to those teaching their kids, it’s like they forget everything they learned the first day of ECON 101.
And frankly, this baffles me.
Establishing a culture of learning is critical, and my own path through life is all the testament you’d ever need to demonstrate the value of parents (in my case grandparents) who insist that education comes first. But that doesn’t happen overnight. We’ve taken decades to create this mess, and if we do EVERYTHING right it’s going to take a generation to crawl out of the hole. Not good news here in Instant Gratificationland.
Further, it’s going to require that families and students get the right kinds of messages from our nation’s leaders. They have to look at the daily news and see opportunity. Lately all they see is people born with a silver spoon up their ass doing all they can to make sure that nobody else gets a chance.
Again, this is not promising.
Aha. We just found Jeff’s social reformer streak. How would this program work, roughly? I like the idea, but it has “bureaucratic nightmare” spray-painted all over it.
I assume that list of safety net schools includes DeVry and ITT-Tech? 🙂
But here I still think you’re doing what way too many economic conservatives are doing. You’re getting caught up in the politics that have emerged from a system you’re unhappy with and strapping baggage onto the market idea.
The PURE market answer to this problem is MY suggestion – pump more money into teacher salaries. You won’t show dramatic results in the first year, but you will in five, so long as the system is set to retain good teachers and dismiss bad ones over time.
The how is simple. Say I want to hire 100 people to work for me, and I need people of at least X ability in order to succeed. The average salary that a person of X ability can command in the marketplace is $40,000/year. I’m offering $30K.
I’m GOING to attract sub-par workers. People of X ability aren’t going to apply. I’m going to wind up with a couple Xs and a whole bunch of X-1s and X-2s. My business is going to suffer, and piling a lot of “accountability” bureaucracy on them is going to make them LESS productive, not more, and it’s also going to deter the rare Xs who are tempted to apply from doing so.
If, on the other hand, I pay $50,000, I’m going to attract a pool where I can choose from Xs, X+1s, X+2s, and maybe even some X+3s. My need for bureaucracy diminishes, as I’m now hiring people who don’t have to be cornered like rats to perform.
This IS market-driven thinking, and I marvel at how many conservatives don’t seem to realize it. Higher level exec types understand the dynamic perfectly when the conversation is about their own compensation packages, but when talk turns to those teaching their kids, it’s like they forget everything they learned the first day of ECON 101.
And frankly, this baffles me.
Establishing a culture of learning is critical, and my own path through life is all the testament you’d ever need to demonstrate the value of parents (in my case grandparents) who insist that education comes first. But that doesn’t happen overnight. We’ve taken decades to create this mess, and if we do EVERYTHING right it’s going to take a generation to crawl out of the hole. Not good news here in Instant Gratificationland.
Further, it’s going to require that families and students get the right kinds of messages from our nation’s leaders. They have to look at the daily news and see opportunity. Lately all they see is people born with a silver spoon up their ass doing all they can to make sure that nobody else gets a chance.
Again, this is not promising.
Aha. We just found Jeff’s social reformer streak. How would this program work, roughly? I like the idea, but it has “bureaucratic nightmare” spray-painted all over it.
I assume that list of safety net schools includes DeVry and ITT-Tech? 🙂
Good cross.
I assure you that DeVry and ITT will do just fine without John’s presence.
Aloha,
Jeff
Good cross.
I assure you that DeVry and ITT will do just fine without John’s presence.
Aloha,
Jeff
I just assumed that since you thought so highly of them… 🙂
We were just watching a segment on the whole process of getting kids into colleges and the competition and cost factors on CBS Sunday Morning. Suffice it to say that at this moment I’m extremely happy I’m not a kid trying to wade through that muck and and even happier I’m not the parent of said kid. It’s just brutal. TOO brutal….
I just assumed that since you thought so highly of them… 🙂
We were just watching a segment on the whole process of getting kids into colleges and the competition and cost factors on CBS Sunday Morning. Suffice it to say that at this moment I’m extremely happy I’m not a kid trying to wade through that muck and and even happier I’m not the parent of said kid. It’s just brutal. TOO brutal….
Actually, I think the media puts a spin on the college application process, making it seem more brutal than it is. One of my son’s best friends applied to the entire Ivy league, plus Michigan as his safety. He was accepted to every school on the list except Brown(WTF???). I can see where kids from some public school districts might feel pressure, but that pressure is probably intensified by neurotic, competitive parents. My son was told by his headmaster that he would have no problems going where ever he wanted because of his SAT score, and choice of major. He’s applying to 5 schools, with our alma mater, Northwestern, as his safety school. I did not pressure him in any way as to what schools to apply to. The kids at my son’s school all want to go to college where their friends are going….there’s more of a social dynamic to the college application process than the media spins it. I told him that if, for some reason his choices all fell through, he could always get into Manatee Community College; That’s where I taught chemistry last year, and the place is a joke.
On the other hand, if my son had gone to public school here in town, he would probably have chosen a college like FSU or UF, which anybody can get into. One can get a respectable education at either of those schools, especially at the professional level.
Many parents I know bemoan the fact that a decent college is too expensive for their kids to attend, and they(the parents) will have to suffer. Many of these same folks are high income people with low net worths. Their problem is that they didn’t use common sense and start planning the financials as soon as the kid was born. (If you stop drinking a Latte at Starbucks everyday for 18 years, that $4.49/day invested wisely would fund a good portion of college) I sometimes pat myself on the back because we started my son’s college fund the year he was born, and I was relentless with scrounging up funding. I also made sure I hit up my dad as well, and now John won’t have problems with funding school, and my lovely wife and I won’t have to suffer. Hell, we’re going to retire next year.
The mad college rush all boils down to the planning, or lack of planning. Those students (and parents) that wait until their junior or senior year of high school to decide on college are usually going to get the short end of the stick. They might also have a set of unrealistic expectations, as their little Suzy just might not be Yale material.
Do you ever plan on having kids, and participating in that craziness that’s called parenting?
Aloha,
Jeff
Actually, I think the media puts a spin on the college application process, making it seem more brutal than it is. One of my son’s best friends applied to the entire Ivy league, plus Michigan as his safety. He was accepted to every school on the list except Brown(WTF???). I can see where kids from some public school districts might feel pressure, but that pressure is probably intensified by neurotic, competitive parents. My son was told by his headmaster that he would have no problems going where ever he wanted because of his SAT score, and choice of major. He’s applying to 5 schools, with our alma mater, Northwestern, as his safety school. I did not pressure him in any way as to what schools to apply to. The kids at my son’s school all want to go to college where their friends are going….there’s more of a social dynamic to the college application process than the media spins it. I told him that if, for some reason his choices all fell through, he could always get into Manatee Community College; That’s where I taught chemistry last year, and the place is a joke.
On the other hand, if my son had gone to public school here in town, he would probably have chosen a college like FSU or UF, which anybody can get into. One can get a respectable education at either of those schools, especially at the professional level.
Many parents I know bemoan the fact that a decent college is too expensive for their kids to attend, and they(the parents) will have to suffer. Many of these same folks are high income people with low net worths. Their problem is that they didn’t use common sense and start planning the financials as soon as the kid was born. (If you stop drinking a Latte at Starbucks everyday for 18 years, that $4.49/day invested wisely would fund a good portion of college) I sometimes pat myself on the back because we started my son’s college fund the year he was born, and I was relentless with scrounging up funding. I also made sure I hit up my dad as well, and now John won’t have problems with funding school, and my lovely wife and I won’t have to suffer. Hell, we’re going to retire next year.
The mad college rush all boils down to the planning, or lack of planning. Those students (and parents) that wait until their junior or senior year of high school to decide on college are usually going to get the short end of the stick. They might also have a set of unrealistic expectations, as their little Suzy just might not be Yale material.
Do you ever plan on having kids, and participating in that craziness that’s called parenting?
Aloha,
Jeff
No, I don’t. This is a decision that has met with very little support from most anybody I know. Everybody insists I’d be a great father, but I have serious concerns about important issues. And it’s not the sort of thing I think I should try out – if I’m wrong, I’ve fucked the life of an innocent kid. I come from a family situation where – well, let’s just say that if I did turn out to be a good parent, I’d be in the minority.
And that’s all BEFORE I start worrying about these kinds of issues….
No, I don’t. This is a decision that has met with very little support from most anybody I know. Everybody insists I’d be a great father, but I have serious concerns about important issues. And it’s not the sort of thing I think I should try out – if I’m wrong, I’ve fucked the life of an innocent kid. I come from a family situation where – well, let’s just say that if I did turn out to be a good parent, I’d be in the minority.
And that’s all BEFORE I start worrying about these kinds of issues….