Afraid of the racist label?
mediastar asks: “Why are (some) white people afraid to be called racist?”
I can’t speak for everybody, but there are a number of reasons why this would be a problem for somebody like me. Some other people, replying on the original thread, have already hit on a few of them.
Having grown up in a very racist sub-culture, I know racism for what it is from the inside. I learned a lot of lessons along the way and am still learning lessons, but a long time ago came to understand that this was not only wrong, it was a particularly vile blot to have on your soul. I have no problems being critical of people for what they do and what they have control over, but there’s something mean, ignorant, and just sub-human about making judgments based on characteristics that people are born with.
So, now that I know these things, and now that I have devoted unfathomable amounts of energy to working to overcome the biases I was raised with, if you called me a racist that would be just about the nastiest shot you could level at me, because it would go to the core of something that’s so important to me. You’d be lumping me in with all those people.
There are also professional reasons, and they’re especially acute if you work (as I used to) in the academic world. If you get branded a racist or a sexist (in some places, even being suspected of being “conservative” is enough) you can pretty much forget your job aspirations.
Finally, it’s the sort of charge that’s just about impossible to rebut. When someone accuses you of racism, that person is coming from a position of automatic moral authority and rightness and the battle is no longer being played on a level field. The accuser has assumed a position of superiority and stands as prosecutor, judge, and jury. Worse, there’s almost nothing you can say. All the evidence you can offer works against you. Do you have a number of close friends who are of another race? We know what “a lot of my best friends are black” will get you. Are you now or have you ever been romantically involved with people of other races? Wait until you’re on the wrong end of somebody who sees that kind of thing as smacking of colonialist politics. Have you devoted your time and energies to combatting racism? And if so, can that be turned into evidence of a guilty conscience?
In short, there is no acceptable response.
This goes on and on, and at some point in my life I’ve either seen all of this up close or, in unfortunate cases, been the defendant in the trial. Trust me when I say that the accusation carries with it an automatic guilty verdict.
This is why I take accusations of sexism and racism very seriously. These things exist and need to be called out, but at the same time leveling the accusation is a powerful step and has to be done responsibly. People who sling the charge around irresponsibly and unfairly are guilty of doing serious harm to people who might be completely innocent, and they also have the effect of empowering racists because it allows them to more easily dismiss those with legitimate concerns about issues of fairness and equity in society.
lullaby pit 
Hmmm….I’m not sure why you’re moving the discussion out of mediastar’s blog and onto your own, but it’s one I want to continue, so here I am.
Ok, we’ve established that you’re a white man and I’m a white woman, and, based on what we’ve both said, we take our efforts to NOT want to be perceived as racist (or sexist or whatever) very seriously.
You’ve also noted that not everyone leveling the racist charge does so responsibly or fairly, and that’s the sticky wicket. If there’s no acceptable response and you’ve been unfairly accused, what DO you do?
There have been times when I’ve stopped myself from saying something to a black kid that I would have said to a white kid, for fear of being perceived as racist. (kids come to mind, because they seem more prone to inappropriate behavior than adults, no matter what their color)
For example, we were at the high school talent show, my son’s band was playing. His high school is culturally diverse, the contestants were black, white, Asian, Indian….
My elderly parents came, and my dad was seated next to a group of four boys who happened to be black. Their behavior during the show was EXTREMELY rude and disruptive. While my dad might have made the assumption their behavior was rude because they were black, I made the assumption they were rude because they were rude. But I didn’t say anything because I feared being labeled. And I WOULD have said something if they had been white. That was wrong, I should have spoken up. My fear of being called racist was enough to keep me from taking action I would normally have taken.
I think that was mediastar’s point, but I’m not certain. So what do you see as a solution?
Hmmm….I’m not sure why you’re moving the discussion out of mediastar’s blog and onto your own, but it’s one I want to continue, so here I am.
Ok, we’ve established that you’re a white man and I’m a white woman, and, based on what we’ve both said, we take our efforts to NOT want to be perceived as racist (or sexist or whatever) very seriously.
You’ve also noted that not everyone leveling the racist charge does so responsibly or fairly, and that’s the sticky wicket. If there’s no acceptable response and you’ve been unfairly accused, what DO you do?
There have been times when I’ve stopped myself from saying something to a black kid that I would have said to a white kid, for fear of being perceived as racist. (kids come to mind, because they seem more prone to inappropriate behavior than adults, no matter what their color)
For example, we were at the high school talent show, my son’s band was playing. His high school is culturally diverse, the contestants were black, white, Asian, Indian….
My elderly parents came, and my dad was seated next to a group of four boys who happened to be black. Their behavior during the show was EXTREMELY rude and disruptive. While my dad might have made the assumption their behavior was rude because they were black, I made the assumption they were rude because they were rude. But I didn’t say anything because I feared being labeled. And I WOULD have said something if they had been white. That was wrong, I should have spoken up. My fear of being called racist was enough to keep me from taking action I would normally have taken.
I think that was mediastar’s point, but I’m not certain. So what do you see as a solution?
Strange you should bring this up now. Just about a week ago, I was accused of being “prejudiced against Chinese.” Which is pretty damned funny since the first girl I ever dated was Chinese. But the person who said it was, in fact, Chinese. And, I thought, a friend.
I’m perfectly willing to admit that i’m “prejudiced against communism.” Hahaha. But against a race? For those of you know know me, I’m guessing you’re just as lost as I am. It makes no friggin’ sense. Fortunately, I also have an character flaw that leads me to treat pretty much all social situations I don’t understand the same; I avoid them like the plague. Which is probably explains why I’m still single. Hahahaha.
Now, as I’ve said before in your blog, the whole concept of prejudice is completely alien to me. I just don’t get it. I deal with logic. It’s my job and the way I think. So when I come across something that’s illogical and isn’t meant to be funny, I get seriously confused. Figuring out a way to deal with the situation without making it worse is insanely outside my skill set.
How do you logically handle a illogical, totally false accusation that has this much social baggage? Particularly when, as in my case, both parties are pretty damned smart to begin with. The tangled up rubberband ball of preconception is too much for my wee little brain to handle.
Then again…maybe I’m just autistic.
Strange you should bring this up now. Just about a week ago, I was accused of being “prejudiced against Chinese.” Which is pretty damned funny since the first girl I ever dated was Chinese. But the person who said it was, in fact, Chinese. And, I thought, a friend.
I’m perfectly willing to admit that i’m “prejudiced against communism.” Hahaha. But against a race? For those of you know know me, I’m guessing you’re just as lost as I am. It makes no friggin’ sense. Fortunately, I also have an character flaw that leads me to treat pretty much all social situations I don’t understand the same; I avoid them like the plague. Which is probably explains why I’m still single. Hahahaha.
Now, as I’ve said before in your blog, the whole concept of prejudice is completely alien to me. I just don’t get it. I deal with logic. It’s my job and the way I think. So when I come across something that’s illogical and isn’t meant to be funny, I get seriously confused. Figuring out a way to deal with the situation without making it worse is insanely outside my skill set.
How do you logically handle a illogical, totally false accusation that has this much social baggage? Particularly when, as in my case, both parties are pretty damned smart to begin with. The tangled up rubberband ball of preconception is too much for my wee little brain to handle.
Then again…maybe I’m just autistic.
My mom IS racist, but I never dare call her out on it, because she hides behind the guise that it’s how she was raised.
Similarly, I heard my grandpa (her dad) refer to the black neighbors as “niggers.” I was completely SHOCKED and reacted accordingly. My aunt said, “What’s the matter? Is your boyfriend black?” (Random question)
I said, “No, it’s just not a nice word.”
My aunt, “Well, I don’t have a problem with it.”
But if I were to say, “That’s racist,” they would all deny that using the N-word is racist, because that’s “just how it is.” They use the time they grew up in (’50s, ’60s) to excuse racism. It doesn’t help that they grew up in a town of 500 people.
In short, my mom thinks she is above racism, even though she is racist. She thinks that just because she believes blacks and other people of color should have voting rights she is not racist. But she frequently asks questions relating to criminals’ race.
For example, there have been random beatings around the U of MN. A gang of 5-6 boys/men is beating up college males. I told my mom this and she asked, “What race are they?” (in reference to the gang of boys/men) In her mind, most black men are violent criminals. She also has a lot to say about “those black flight attendants” and “those Asian flight attendants” and “those Jewish passengers.” Yet, she does not think of herself as racist.
Sigh.
My mom IS racist, but I never dare call her out on it, because she hides behind the guise that it’s how she was raised.
Similarly, I heard my grandpa (her dad) refer to the black neighbors as “niggers.” I was completely SHOCKED and reacted accordingly. My aunt said, “What’s the matter? Is your boyfriend black?” (Random question)
I said, “No, it’s just not a nice word.”
My aunt, “Well, I don’t have a problem with it.”
But if I were to say, “That’s racist,” they would all deny that using the N-word is racist, because that’s “just how it is.” They use the time they grew up in (’50s, ’60s) to excuse racism. It doesn’t help that they grew up in a town of 500 people.
In short, my mom thinks she is above racism, even though she is racist. She thinks that just because she believes blacks and other people of color should have voting rights she is not racist. But she frequently asks questions relating to criminals’ race.
For example, there have been random beatings around the U of MN. A gang of 5-6 boys/men is beating up college males. I told my mom this and she asked, “What race are they?” (in reference to the gang of boys/men) In her mind, most black men are violent criminals. She also has a lot to say about “those black flight attendants” and “those Asian flight attendants” and “those Jewish passengers.” Yet, she does not think of herself as racist.
Sigh.
Sometimes I pull comments on community threads out here – mainly to provide something like a comprehensive record.
As for a solution, I just try to forge ahead and make it a point not to be intimidated by situations. I have posted occasionally on issues where I fully expected to be attacked, and it didn’t happen. For instance, I’m not afraid of the n-word (although let’s euphemize it here) and have argued that we only increase its power to hurt when we constantly euphemize it.
But if attacked, all I can do is respond in good faith. If I have been attacked unfairly and irresponsibly, I’ll probably reply as pointedly as possible, because in that case the last place I want to be is on the defensive.
On the whole, the only solution is to do the right thing all the time and hope that over a generation or two we evolve to the point where it all seems kind of silly to us. Ultimately, the best way to address issues of racism is to rid the culture of the structures and dynamics that make it meaningful. In a society where everybody really IS equal, I imagine racism is less of a concern.
Sometimes I pull comments on community threads out here – mainly to provide something like a comprehensive record.
As for a solution, I just try to forge ahead and make it a point not to be intimidated by situations. I have posted occasionally on issues where I fully expected to be attacked, and it didn’t happen. For instance, I’m not afraid of the n-word (although let’s euphemize it here) and have argued that we only increase its power to hurt when we constantly euphemize it.
But if attacked, all I can do is respond in good faith. If I have been attacked unfairly and irresponsibly, I’ll probably reply as pointedly as possible, because in that case the last place I want to be is on the defensive.
On the whole, the only solution is to do the right thing all the time and hope that over a generation or two we evolve to the point where it all seems kind of silly to us. Ultimately, the best way to address issues of racism is to rid the culture of the structures and dynamics that make it meaningful. In a society where everybody really IS equal, I imagine racism is less of a concern.
Well, boy howdy, it sounds like your family and mine would get along famously. I grew up in a place where “nigger” was the word you used. The racism was embedded that the pejorative and the neutral descriptor were the same word. It’s like you live in a culture where the word for stranger and the word for enemy are the same.
So that’s where I started out. I’m glad to have made progress, but yeah, if I need to I can find people who felt no need to progress without much trouble.
Well, boy howdy, it sounds like your family and mine would get along famously. I grew up in a place where “nigger” was the word you used. The racism was embedded that the pejorative and the neutral descriptor were the same word. It’s like you live in a culture where the word for stranger and the word for enemy are the same.
So that’s where I started out. I’m glad to have made progress, but yeah, if I need to I can find people who felt no need to progress without much trouble.
I’m surprised to see so clearly that my fear of a negative label was more powerful than my desire to address a negative situation.
I hope, with this understanding, that I can deal with it head on next time; set the fear aside and do what I feel should be done.
But evolve over a generation or two? Say it ain’t so….
I’m surprised to see so clearly that my fear of a negative label was more powerful than my desire to address a negative situation.
I hope, with this understanding, that I can deal with it head on next time; set the fear aside and do what I feel should be done.
But evolve over a generation or two? Say it ain’t so….
You think I’m being overly optimistic?
You think I’m being overly optimistic?
Indeed not. I’ll color ME with the optimistic crayon. You, I’m thinking I’ll color you a light shade of sardonic.
Indeed not. I’ll color ME with the optimistic crayon. You, I’m thinking I’ll color you a light shade of sardonic.
What I hate most, besides racism, is people who cry racism (Jessie Jackson). To tell you the truth most of my white friends can care less who’s in the group. And my group of friends are the “all star team of rude” even by NY standards. Sure there are racial remarks thrown around but they include all minorities and divisions of whites. I can’t remember in my life anyone white person around my age ever saying something directly to a minority that was degrading. I’ve seen it both in NY, and TN by someone who was above 40 years old, but never in my generation. I have however seen this by blacks. In fact my friend gave a speech in his undergrad speech class about how black people act racist. This speech was in response to a black persons speech about racism. Of course all the black people were pissed and all the white people sat silent. After the class every white student praised him on his speech, but more importantly praised him on how right his message was. They were too afraid to be labeled as racist themselves.
I also hate when the word minority is thrown around it is automatically equated to black. This of course pissed me off with the NFL Rooney Rule. The team has to interview a minority for the head coaching job. Almost every owner interviews a black person because they know they’ll be labeled as racists even if they interview an American Indian, who by the way is the smallest minority.
I also live in a very mixed neighborhood; I’m talking McDonalds Place Mat diversity. And I can safely say that I have never witnessed any racial crimes, but I have witnessed the fulfillment of every stereotype possible, this goes for whites as well, myself included. Yes I watered my grass with a beer in my hand. You know how touchy white people get with their lawn!
Here’s a quick observation from my 29 years of life.
Studying history almost every minority has come over and lived the American Dream. The Germans came over and were ridiculed, then the Polish, the Irish and Italians all fought hard, then eventually made it. We can’t forget that back in the day although white people shared the same skin color they all hated each other. Not to mention different religions like Jews, and Catholics, after all the KKK was started first and foremost to get rid of these two groups. Most recently Asians pre and post World War 2. Indians, and Middle Eastern people are making it, of course Latinos are going to be a force like the Irish in the turn of the century. Not this generation but the next two generations will still have that Latino pride and it will show in the polls. I predict then a few generations after that they will become blended with society as families get better paying jobs and race becomes less of an issue. What happened to Black Americans? How come the majority have not climbed up the ladder to middle class? It can’t be because of skin color, because there are plenty of wealthy Indians in the surrounding neighborhoods, and they have a pretty obvious color differentiation. I can’t answer this question because I’m 3’d generation Polish/German American and I don’t want to be racist. Actually my last name has roots in Africa, so technically I’m African American.
What I hate most, besides racism, is people who cry racism (Jessie Jackson). To tell you the truth most of my white friends can care less who’s in the group. And my group of friends are the “all star team of rude” even by NY standards. Sure there are racial remarks thrown around but they include all minorities and divisions of whites. I can’t remember in my life anyone white person around my age ever saying something directly to a minority that was degrading. I’ve seen it both in NY, and TN by someone who was above 40 years old, but never in my generation. I have however seen this by blacks. In fact my friend gave a speech in his undergrad speech class about how black people act racist. This speech was in response to a black persons speech about racism. Of course all the black people were pissed and all the white people sat silent. After the class every white student praised him on his speech, but more importantly praised him on how right his message was. They were too afraid to be labeled as racist themselves.
I also hate when the word minority is thrown around it is automatically equated to black. This of course pissed me off with the NFL Rooney Rule. The team has to interview a minority for the head coaching job. Almost every owner interviews a black person because they know they’ll be labeled as racists even if they interview an American Indian, who by the way is the smallest minority.
I also live in a very mixed neighborhood; I’m talking McDonalds Place Mat diversity. And I can safely say that I have never witnessed any racial crimes, but I have witnessed the fulfillment of every stereotype possible, this goes for whites as well, myself included. Yes I watered my grass with a beer in my hand. You know how touchy white people get with their lawn!
Here’s a quick observation from my 29 years of life.
Studying history almost every minority has come over and lived the American Dream. The Germans came over and were ridiculed, then the Polish, the Irish and Italians all fought hard, then eventually made it. We can’t forget that back in the day although white people shared the same skin color they all hated each other. Not to mention different religions like Jews, and Catholics, after all the KKK was started first and foremost to get rid of these two groups. Most recently Asians pre and post World War 2. Indians, and Middle Eastern people are making it, of course Latinos are going to be a force like the Irish in the turn of the century. Not this generation but the next two generations will still have that Latino pride and it will show in the polls. I predict then a few generations after that they will become blended with society as families get better paying jobs and race becomes less of an issue. What happened to Black Americans? How come the majority have not climbed up the ladder to middle class? It can’t be because of skin color, because there are plenty of wealthy Indians in the surrounding neighborhoods, and they have a pretty obvious color differentiation. I can’t answer this question because I’m 3’d generation Polish/German American and I don’t want to be racist. Actually my last name has roots in Africa, so technically I’m African American.
The racism was embedded that the pejorative and the neutral descriptor were the same word.
Yep, sounds like my mom’s side of the family. In my grandpa’s case, he wasn’t referring to the neighbors as “bad” niggers, just neutral niggers. He felt they were nice people….albeit black.
It wasn’t just my family that was racist; I had friends that made derogatory remarks. It was disgusting and when I called them out on it, I was the one who was “wrong.” The most frequent response was “There are blacks and there are niggers.” Ugh.
And my family’s racism is such that if I were to date outside of the white race, I would be disowned.
The racism was embedded that the pejorative and the neutral descriptor were the same word.
Yep, sounds like my mom’s side of the family. In my grandpa’s case, he wasn’t referring to the neighbors as “bad” niggers, just neutral niggers. He felt they were nice people….albeit black.
It wasn’t just my family that was racist; I had friends that made derogatory remarks. It was disgusting and when I called them out on it, I was the one who was “wrong.” The most frequent response was “There are blacks and there are niggers.” Ugh.
And my family’s racism is such that if I were to date outside of the white race, I would be disowned.
The question toward the end is the most interesting. Why have all immigrant groups worked their way up the ladder (or are on their way) while the struggle remains tougher for blacks?
No doubt there are multiple reasons, but our current state of social relations suggests that this is a question we need to be spending some time with.
The question toward the end is the most interesting. Why have all immigrant groups worked their way up the ladder (or are on their way) while the struggle remains tougher for blacks?
No doubt there are multiple reasons, but our current state of social relations suggests that this is a question we need to be spending some time with.
Yes, that’s my point
My fear of being called racist was enough to keep me from taking action I would normally have taken.
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Where does that fear come from? I realize it’s not an easy question to answer, primarily, I think, because it forces people to “go there” when they may not want to.
Yes, that’s my point
My fear of being called racist was enough to keep me from taking action I would normally have taken.
That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Where does that fear come from? I realize it’s not an easy question to answer, primarily, I think, because it forces people to “go there” when they may not want to.
Re: Yes, that’s my point
Well, if you can figure out the source of ANYONE’s unfounded fears, you’ve secured your future and we’ll all line up for analysis….
For me, the fear is of being lumped together with people who think either racism is ok, or racism doesn’t exist. I know it exists, and I know that it’s wrong, but I can’t wear a sign so my actions must speak for me.
So if I had taken action, I would have known my motives weren’t racist, but a racist taking the same action would have looked exactly the same. Blech.
Fear of being misjudged or mislabeled or misunderstood….great cripplers.
I’m willing to go anywhere that helps me understand myself better. Thanks for posting the original question.
Re: Yes, that’s my point
Well, if you can figure out the source of ANYONE’s unfounded fears, you’ve secured your future and we’ll all line up for analysis….
For me, the fear is of being lumped together with people who think either racism is ok, or racism doesn’t exist. I know it exists, and I know that it’s wrong, but I can’t wear a sign so my actions must speak for me.
So if I had taken action, I would have known my motives weren’t racist, but a racist taking the same action would have looked exactly the same. Blech.
Fear of being misjudged or mislabeled or misunderstood….great cripplers.
I’m willing to go anywhere that helps me understand myself better. Thanks for posting the original question.
Just a final observation/thought/question on the “moving of the discussion” thing. It appears (at a glance) that when you have something to say regarding someone else’s post, you sometimes comment briefly and then move the discussion to your own blog, or move it completely over without commenting in their journal. Yes, you reference their post in your blog, but still, you move the discussion.
In this case, anyone interested in mediastar’s post would completely miss the move and the ensuing discussion unless you were also on their ljfriend’s list.
Don’t you think that does a bit of disservice to the original poster’s own blog and the flow of discussion for them? I mean, this was a pretty powerful question mediastar posed, (in my mind) but she had to come over to your journal to comment on the continuing dialog.
If you find someone’s blog has an interesting post, why not comment on it over there? You could post a link in your own if you want your ljfriends to join in the conversation, but it just seems, well, maybe a bit…..egotistical (for lack of a better word, I apologize) to move the conversation away from the original journal and into your own.
So, am I on the road to recovery? My very real fear of your response (as in, you’re The Great and Powerful Oz and I’m the cowardly lion) didn’t keep me from trying to articulate this thought.
Just a final observation/thought/question on the “moving of the discussion” thing. It appears (at a glance) that when you have something to say regarding someone else’s post, you sometimes comment briefly and then move the discussion to your own blog, or move it completely over without commenting in their journal. Yes, you reference their post in your blog, but still, you move the discussion.
In this case, anyone interested in mediastar’s post would completely miss the move and the ensuing discussion unless you were also on their ljfriend’s list.
Don’t you think that does a bit of disservice to the original poster’s own blog and the flow of discussion for them? I mean, this was a pretty powerful question mediastar posed, (in my mind) but she had to come over to your journal to comment on the continuing dialog.
If you find someone’s blog has an interesting post, why not comment on it over there? You could post a link in your own if you want your ljfriends to join in the conversation, but it just seems, well, maybe a bit…..egotistical (for lack of a better word, I apologize) to move the conversation away from the original journal and into your own.
So, am I on the road to recovery? My very real fear of your response (as in, you’re The Great and Powerful Oz and I’m the cowardly lion) didn’t keep me from trying to articulate this thought.
I don’t really “move” it – the full essence of my comment lives both places and I continue to participate in the comment thread on the original post. I also use the post on my journal to point people to the original so they can play there if they want.
Not all of my readers are 5e folks and some don’t want to be, so I guess I see this not as an either/or thing but as a both/and.
In the final analysis, my LJ serves multiple purposes. Some are obvious enough. In addition, it’s an archive of all the substantive things I write online. So when a comment passes a certain threshold, it I want to make sure I have it captured so that when I someday pick up my site and move it (or gods forbid LJ goes the way of mp3.com) those major bits of comment are there and easily captured.
I don’t really “move” it – the full essence of my comment lives both places and I continue to participate in the comment thread on the original post. I also use the post on my journal to point people to the original so they can play there if they want.
Not all of my readers are 5e folks and some don’t want to be, so I guess I see this not as an either/or thing but as a both/and.
In the final analysis, my LJ serves multiple purposes. Some are obvious enough. In addition, it’s an archive of all the substantive things I write online. So when a comment passes a certain threshold, it I want to make sure I have it captured so that when I someday pick up my site and move it (or gods forbid LJ goes the way of mp3.com) those major bits of comment are there and easily captured.
Thank you, I see your point better now. When clicking on the mediastar link, it goes to her personal journal, and when clicking on the “why are some people…” link, it goes to her post in the 5th estate community. So while the dialog actually exists in three places, you have provided people with links to the other two.
Not that it matters, but this really helped me.
Thank you, I see your point better now. When clicking on the mediastar link, it goes to her personal journal, and when clicking on the “why are some people…” link, it goes to her post in the 5th estate community. So while the dialog actually exists in three places, you have provided people with links to the other two.
Not that it matters, but this really helped me.
Right. In a way it’s like xposting, only with comments instead of top-level posts.
Right. In a way it’s like xposting, only with comments instead of top-level posts.