RnR Hall of Shame
Normally I give the annual rite of ridiculosity known as the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame nomination/induction process all the attention it rightfully deserves. Which is to say, none at all. But this time around they’ve gotten the better of me. Dear gods – if it gets much worse maybe they’ll put me in the Rock & Roll Hall of “Fame.”
R.E.M., Van Halen, Stooges On Rock Hall Ballot
October 30, 2006, 10:30 AM ET
Jonathan Cohen, N.Y.
R.E.M., Van Halen, the Stooges and Patti Smith are among the nine acts on the ballot for the 2007 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction, to be held March 12 at New York’s Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Also on the ballot are the Dave Clark Five, Chic, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Joe Tex and the Ronettes.
I’m not going to turn this into a thesis or anything, but let’s do go line by line for a brief comment. And let’s do it in alphabetical order.
Chic – Are you serious? I’m trying hard to avoid the gratuitous use of words like “stupid” and “moron” and “drooling halfwit” here, and if I’m offending you because you think Chic somehow belongs alongside the likes of the The Beatles and U2 and The Stones and Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd, well, you’re just going to have to find a way to live with my scorn. I’m normlly more diplomatic than this, but diplomacy is not always a virtue.
First off, Chic was about as rock & roll as the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Second, they were disco. Disco was as anti-rock as you could be – it fucking annihilated a good five years worth of opportunity for real rock bands. The sold-out shitpimpers who thought this up need their nards stomped by Johnny Rotten. On the off chance that the nominators have nards (or any other form of recognizably human genitalia), that is. This one nomination, by itself, invalidates the very existence of the organization. No group that would entertain this foolishness for even a second should be taken seriously. Were I a RnRHoF inductee, I would immediately demand that all references to my career be stricken from the facility. And I would do so as loudly as possible.
I smell the hand of Jann Wenner. And there’s not enough Lysol in the world to chase the stink out of the building.
The Dave Clark Five – Mmmmkay… Where are The Monkees? I mean, the DC5 is no more egregious a sin than a lot of other inductees, but it kinda points up the trivialization of the process, don’t you think?
Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five – Deserves to be an absolute first-ballot inductee…into the Hip-Hop Hall of Fame. For better or worse, rap isn’t rock and roll. A lot of it has plenty of merit, and that should be recognized. But it’s a decidedly independent genre, for the most part. Still, this one has a lot more merit than the two above.
REM – If the nominating committee had gakked this one I’d be calling for the HoF to be demolished. With the committee inside. (And for the record, I do not believe that them actually getting this one right means that the building shouldn’t be demolished with them in it.)
The Ronettes – Okay. This is one that opens the door to an industry/political argument, because the merit here stems from Phil Spector as a producer. But as an entity, sure.
Patti Smith – Sure. I think her career is probably as overrated by critics as it was underappreciated by the mass audience, but she’s certainly more worthy than many who are already in.
The Stooges – About. Fucking. Time. Should have been inducted a long time ago. Not only do they deserve to be in on the merits of their own music, but very few bands have exerted the sort of lasting influence that The Stooges did. The Beatles, Stones, Big Star, Pink Floyd, VU, Bowie – who else paved the way for more bands than Iggy and the Stooges?
Joe Tex – Ummm. Really? Well, I’m no expert on Joe Tex and am willing to hear from somebody who knows more than I do on the subject. But this one seems a little…light?
Van Halen – This is such a mixed bag. Sure, VH was great in many ways. Eddie can play about as well as any guitarist ever, and was certainly among the best of his generation. But the Van Hagar years were a blight. Sammy couldn’t say hello to the crowd without me feeling my intelligence had just dropped a little. Then again, this is rock and roll. Where would we be if we started holding pomp, arrogance and self-absorption against lead singers?
Meanwhile, look at who’s still not in:
- XTC
- Electric Light Orchestra
- The Zombies
- The Hollies
- Procol Harum
- Television
- Graham Parker
- Nick Lowe
- Tom Waits
- Squeeze
- The Specials
- Big Star
- Yes
- Genesis/Peter Gabriel
- Rush
- The Spinners
- Gram Parsons
- Alice Cooper
- Jethro Tull
I hope REM take this opportunity to do something significant, and not just because The Monkees aren’t in yet. They need to do what the Sex Pistols did last year. Since everybody expects Johnny to act out, they all thought the Pistols’ reaction was a pose. Stipe – well, he’s not known for being much of a prankster.
Anyway, just had to vent a bit. I know, the HoF hasn’t mattered for a very long time and it, like a poorly trained child pitching a tantrum at the dinner table, is best ignored. Unfortunately, the urge to swat its obnoxious little bottom can be overpowering at times.
By the way, if you want to hear what a complete fucking moron thinks about this batch of nominees, click here. If you have any intelligence at all you won’t need to read past the first sentence of his Chic entry.
:xpost:
lullaby pit 
The original, 5/4 version of “Love to Love you Baby” is sexialicious. If any disco deserves to get in, this is it.
The original, 5/4 version of “Love to Love you Baby” is sexialicious. If any disco deserves to get in, this is it.
But…
* XTC – Godz….say no more.
* Electric Light Orchestra… dear God, are you serious?
* The Zombies…one hit wonders
* The Hollies…three hit wonders
* Procol Harum…I have personal reasons for not accepting the PH’s.
* Television…Marquee Moon is beynd compare, the rest was…Foxhole?
* Graham Parker…decent pub rock
* Nick Lowe…indecent pub rock (soft spot for Bowi)
* Tom Waits…Bukowski set to music. Foreign Affairs was OK.
* Squeeze…amazing. +1 for this
* The Specials…booze music
* Big Star…(falls over)
* Yes…NO!
* Genesis/Peter Gabriel…Lamb Lies Down was OK…
* Rush…sigh…
* The Spinners…round again…
* Gram Parsons…this is a joke, yes?
* Alice Cooper…this IS a joke!
* Jethro Tull…songs from the wouldn’t
But…
* XTC – Godz….say no more.
* Electric Light Orchestra… dear God, are you serious?
* The Zombies…one hit wonders
* The Hollies…three hit wonders
* Procol Harum…I have personal reasons for not accepting the PH’s.
* Television…Marquee Moon is beynd compare, the rest was…Foxhole?
* Graham Parker…decent pub rock
* Nick Lowe…indecent pub rock (soft spot for Bowi)
* Tom Waits…Bukowski set to music. Foreign Affairs was OK.
* Squeeze…amazing. +1 for this
* The Specials…booze music
* Big Star…(falls over)
* Yes…NO!
* Genesis/Peter Gabriel…Lamb Lies Down was OK…
* Rush…sigh…
* The Spinners…round again…
* Gram Parsons…this is a joke, yes?
* Alice Cooper…this IS a joke!
* Jethro Tull…songs from the wouldn’t
Joe Tex should be in the Hall 0f Fame.
He was a good soul singer, and was the precursor to rap(some say he invented it). He had some hits in the 60’s and 70’s that everyone knows….but no one knows who did them.
Jeff
Joe Tex should be in the Hall 0f Fame.
He was a good soul singer, and was the precursor to rap(some say he invented it). He had some hits in the 60’s and 70’s that everyone knows….but no one knows who did them.
Jeff
Actually, when the Beatles came out, they were in competition with the Dave Clark Five. You either liked the Beatles, or Dave Clark and we used to have many schoolyard discussions about the merits of each. Since I was only in second grade, I liked the Dave Clark Five better. I saw both bands in concert thanks to a cool grandmother who took us to concerts, and liked the Dave Clark Five concert better. I didn’t like the Beatles concert because of all the girls screaming. I didn’t appreciate the Beatles until the Revolver album came out. Now, I like the Beatles, but still enjoy the Dave Clark Five. I’m suprised that they aren’t already in the Hall of Fame.
Aloha,
Jeff
Actually, when the Beatles came out, they were in competition with the Dave Clark Five. You either liked the Beatles, or Dave Clark and we used to have many schoolyard discussions about the merits of each. Since I was only in second grade, I liked the Dave Clark Five better. I saw both bands in concert thanks to a cool grandmother who took us to concerts, and liked the Dave Clark Five concert better. I didn’t like the Beatles concert because of all the girls screaming. I didn’t appreciate the Beatles until the Revolver album came out. Now, I like the Beatles, but still enjoy the Dave Clark Five. I’m suprised that they aren’t already in the Hall of Fame.
Aloha,
Jeff
The operative word in that sentence is “if.”
The operative word in that sentence is “if.”
If so, then he’s one of those really important influences that often get overlooked. There are artists out there who deserve to be in PURELY because of the influence they exerted. Big Star is a great example of this – you wouldn’t BELIEVE the hundreds of neo-power pop acts out there who owe their souls to Chilton and Bell….
If so, then he’s one of those really important influences that often get overlooked. There are artists out there who deserve to be in PURELY because of the influence they exerted. Big Star is a great example of this – you wouldn’t BELIEVE the hundreds of neo-power pop acts out there who owe their souls to Chilton and Bell….
There’s a list of criteria I use when evaluating the greatness of a band. Audience response measures (like sales, airplay, and an intuitive take on popularity generally) matter to a degree, but artistic merit considerations always trump everything. Sort of a prerequisite. So if I’m thinking about an artist whose work is popular, but who I can’t make a more serious critical case for, then I have a hard time assigning that act too much in the way of “greatness.”
This is related to the argument I always get into over whether it’s all “taste.” A lot of people out there think so – for them, their ten favorite bands are their idea of the ten GREATEST bands. But that’s just a refusal to think. I have plenty of favorites, artists I really enjoy and love to listen to and whose CDs I buy, who I don’t think are great by any critical standard. And my list of greatest bands contains acts that I don’t really listen to very much. The Beatles are the greatest band, but they’re probably not in my top 50 favorites.
There’s a list of criteria I use when evaluating the greatness of a band. Audience response measures (like sales, airplay, and an intuitive take on popularity generally) matter to a degree, but artistic merit considerations always trump everything. Sort of a prerequisite. So if I’m thinking about an artist whose work is popular, but who I can’t make a more serious critical case for, then I have a hard time assigning that act too much in the way of “greatness.”
This is related to the argument I always get into over whether it’s all “taste.” A lot of people out there think so – for them, their ten favorite bands are their idea of the ten GREATEST bands. But that’s just a refusal to think. I have plenty of favorites, artists I really enjoy and love to listen to and whose CDs I buy, who I don’t think are great by any critical standard. And my list of greatest bands contains acts that I don’t really listen to very much. The Beatles are the greatest band, but they’re probably not in my top 50 favorites.
The Monkees are not in the RnR HOF? Good grief. Not sure I agree with ELO and Tull, ‘cuz I’m not sure what they did was Rock ‘n Roll. But, hey, if The Dead and Skynyrd are there, then I s’pose ELO and Tull can play, too.
The Monkees are not in the RnR HOF? Good grief. Not sure I agree with ELO and Tull, ‘cuz I’m not sure what they did was Rock ‘n Roll. But, hey, if The Dead and Skynyrd are there, then I s’pose ELO and Tull can play, too.
Agree 100%
Aloha,
Jeff
Agree 100%
Aloha,
Jeff
Again, I agree 100%. In fact, I place Jan and Dean in a higher position than the Beatles in my own list. I put Brian Wilson way over John Lennon. To me, Frank Zappa is God….I have his entire catalogue, including bootlegs.
Aloha,
Jeff
Again, I agree 100%. In fact, I place Jan and Dean in a higher position than the Beatles in my own list. I put Brian Wilson way over John Lennon. To me, Frank Zappa is God….I have his entire catalogue, including bootlegs.
Aloha,
Jeff
The one artist I always come back to in this debate is Rick Springfield. He’s always been a favorite. But I don’t think I can argue that he’s a GREAT. He’s a lot more serious an artist than he’s credited for being, but still.
Then again, this boils down to a “how many are we going to let in” question. I might set the bar for the Doc Sammy RnR HoF a little above his level, but I’d rate the quality of his often very thoughtful guitar pop/rock way ahead of a lot of folks in the actual Hall.
The one artist I always come back to in this debate is Rick Springfield. He’s always been a favorite. But I don’t think I can argue that he’s a GREAT. He’s a lot more serious an artist than he’s credited for being, but still.
Then again, this boils down to a “how many are we going to let in” question. I might set the bar for the Doc Sammy RnR HoF a little above his level, but I’d rate the quality of his often very thoughtful guitar pop/rock way ahead of a lot of folks in the actual Hall.
Ever heard of Stanley Jordan?
Go to U-Tube and check out his videos.
Simply amazing.
Aloha,
Jeff
Ever heard of Stanley Jordan?
Go to U-Tube and check out his videos.
Simply amazing.
Aloha,
Jeff
How utterly remarkably coincidental: http://community.livejournal.com/fortysomething/1834434.html?view=23246274#t23246274
How utterly remarkably coincidental: http://community.livejournal.com/fortysomething/1834434.html?view=23246274#t23246274
Wow?
Some kind of collective consciousness going on.
Aloha,
Jeff
Wow?
Some kind of collective consciousness going on.
Aloha,
Jeff
Yeah. And considering the sheer volume of coincidence in my life lately, this can only mean that Stanley is stopping by unannounced later this evening.
Yeah. And considering the sheer volume of coincidence in my life lately, this can only mean that Stanley is stopping by unannounced later this evening.
so … you mention The Specials, but balked a bit at Bob Marley a couple years back?
Still, I have to make a case for The Cars. Their only mistakes were Heartbeat City and being MTV video darlings. Beyond that, their first four albums were fantastic. The debut record was so flawless that it should have warranted Hall consideration on that alone. Then, they followed it up with Candy-O, which while it might have been a bit uneven, might have actually been better than their first. Panorama was a tough digest for some because it eschewed the pop single in favor of some dark introspection, a true rock staple. Shake It Up returned them to their roots and even seemed to conjure some classic rock spirit a la Buddy Holly.
How many ’90s bands didn’t list The Cars as an influence?
so … you mention The Specials, but balked a bit at Bob Marley a couple years back?
Still, I have to make a case for The Cars. Their only mistakes were Heartbeat City and being MTV video darlings. Beyond that, their first four albums were fantastic. The debut record was so flawless that it should have warranted Hall consideration on that alone. Then, they followed it up with Candy-O, which while it might have been a bit uneven, might have actually been better than their first. Panorama was a tough digest for some because it eschewed the pop single in favor of some dark introspection, a true rock staple. Shake It Up returned them to their roots and even seemed to conjure some classic rock spirit a la Buddy Holly.
How many ’90s bands didn’t list The Cars as an influence?
I balked at Bob Marley?
Okay, wait – The Cars aren’t in yet? Well hell – that’s ridiculous. Their first three records were about as good as any first three in rock history. Your take on PANORAMA is 100% on the money.
So I should have been even more torqued off….
I balked at Bob Marley?
Okay, wait – The Cars aren’t in yet? Well hell – that’s ridiculous. Their first three records were about as good as any first three in rock history. Your take on PANORAMA is 100% on the money.
So I should have been even more torqued off….
okay, “balk” is a strong word, but you questioned whether reggae belonged in the Rock Hall the same way you just did with Grandmaster Flash and hip-hop. while i consider reggae to be part of the rock pantheon, my gut reaction is also to make the crow bar separation between rock and rap/hip-hop, but what’s the difference between hip-hop and punk? we’re quick to welcome in punk, saying to ourselves “i guess the (white) kids were alright, after all”.
did they not both embody the rebellious spirit of rock by irritating those who weren’t hip to the new sound? did they not both evoke reactions like “they’re talentless”, “there’s nothing to that ‘music'”, “they just rip off what came before like ungrateful children”. i have a tough time with this one.
glad i could help further your anger with hall. The Cars rule.
okay, “balk” is a strong word, but you questioned whether reggae belonged in the Rock Hall the same way you just did with Grandmaster Flash and hip-hop. while i consider reggae to be part of the rock pantheon, my gut reaction is also to make the crow bar separation between rock and rap/hip-hop, but what’s the difference between hip-hop and punk? we’re quick to welcome in punk, saying to ourselves “i guess the (white) kids were alright, after all”.
did they not both embody the rebellious spirit of rock by irritating those who weren’t hip to the new sound? did they not both evoke reactions like “they’re talentless”, “there’s nothing to that ‘music'”, “they just rip off what came before like ungrateful children”. i have a tough time with this one.
glad i could help further your anger with hall. The Cars rule.
I guess I’m a lot more open to the idea that reggae is rock than I am to hip-hop. The lines are blurry in some spots, and this is always going to be a source of controversy. I mean, is R&B rock? How about funk? Should George Clinton be in the HoF? Well, he needs to be in SOME HoF, so if it ain’t rock we need whatever its analogue is.
I hate that this argument boils down, all too often, to “white” music vs. “black” music, especially since without black influences we’d all still be hep on cats like Pat Boone. We’d be like Navin in THE JERK.
So maybe the answer is as easy as renaming the HoF. Call it the Popular Music HoF and moot this whole debate.
In any case, how can you possibly include punk in this conversation. Punk is closer to Buddy Holly and Elvis than Pink Floyd is….
I guess I’m a lot more open to the idea that reggae is rock than I am to hip-hop. The lines are blurry in some spots, and this is always going to be a source of controversy. I mean, is R&B rock? How about funk? Should George Clinton be in the HoF? Well, he needs to be in SOME HoF, so if it ain’t rock we need whatever its analogue is.
I hate that this argument boils down, all too often, to “white” music vs. “black” music, especially since without black influences we’d all still be hep on cats like Pat Boone. We’d be like Navin in THE JERK.
So maybe the answer is as easy as renaming the HoF. Call it the Popular Music HoF and moot this whole debate.
In any case, how can you possibly include punk in this conversation. Punk is closer to Buddy Holly and Elvis than Pink Floyd is….
I’ve been giving this one some thought. Initially, I felt bad for trying to reduce it to a “white” vs. “black” issue, but really, how is hip-hop any less of a child of rock than any other offshoot? Sure, it probably also borrows at least as equally from R&B. But, I think R&B is rock, because really, when we say “rock”, it’s probably really going back to blues. Yes, rock isn’t exactly the same as blues, but that’s like accepting dancehall and denying reggae.
The fun thing about hip hop is that they brought in samplers and turntables in a way that seemed distasteful and terrible … kind of like the initial reaction to the electric guitar.
You’re right though … the more inclusive it gets, the less of a point there is to calling it the RnR Hall of Fame. But as you’ve pointed out, it comes down more to the Hall’s internal absurdities and subjective (and apparently variable) criteria than anything.
But then, if you want rules, you don’t want rock.
I’ve been giving this one some thought. Initially, I felt bad for trying to reduce it to a “white” vs. “black” issue, but really, how is hip-hop any less of a child of rock than any other offshoot? Sure, it probably also borrows at least as equally from R&B. But, I think R&B is rock, because really, when we say “rock”, it’s probably really going back to blues. Yes, rock isn’t exactly the same as blues, but that’s like accepting dancehall and denying reggae.
The fun thing about hip hop is that they brought in samplers and turntables in a way that seemed distasteful and terrible … kind of like the initial reaction to the electric guitar.
You’re right though … the more inclusive it gets, the less of a point there is to calling it the RnR Hall of Fame. But as you’ve pointed out, it comes down more to the Hall’s internal absurdities and subjective (and apparently variable) criteria than anything.
But then, if you want rules, you don’t want rock.
There are all kinds of issues here – influences, parallel developments, crossovers, gray areas, etc. All of these serve to muddy the waters surrounding the definition of “rock & roll.” A few things are clear:
Rock and roll is, theoretically, a real thing. We can debate the criteria and boundaries all we want, but nobody would argue that The Beatles and The Stones were rock & roll artists (at least nobody we should waste time listening to). So that means there’s a center and hence a normative definition.
R&B – ditto. Hip-Hop – ditto. The Blues – ditto.
There are significant overlaps and shared influences between all of these styles, and these intersections complicate any attempt to craft clear boundaries between the styles. This means that no set of criteria (and the interpretations thereof) is ever likely to achieve consensus status. Every line you draw will spark new objections and debates.
As a result, if we want to have a rock HoF, we have to live with the controversies over who is and isn’t rock (although trying to include disco isn’t controversial – it’s merely stupid). This is why I’m back to my idea of making it a popular music HoF. Yeah, this will open the door to some really rarefied academic arguments over the definition of “popular” – can you include important, but obscure influences?
Just for fun, let’s nominate John Cage and see if can get a fight over the definition of “music” going….
There are all kinds of issues here – influences, parallel developments, crossovers, gray areas, etc. All of these serve to muddy the waters surrounding the definition of “rock & roll.” A few things are clear:
Rock and roll is, theoretically, a real thing. We can debate the criteria and boundaries all we want, but nobody would argue that The Beatles and The Stones were rock & roll artists (at least nobody we should waste time listening to). So that means there’s a center and hence a normative definition.
R&B – ditto. Hip-Hop – ditto. The Blues – ditto.
There are significant overlaps and shared influences between all of these styles, and these intersections complicate any attempt to craft clear boundaries between the styles. This means that no set of criteria (and the interpretations thereof) is ever likely to achieve consensus status. Every line you draw will spark new objections and debates.
As a result, if we want to have a rock HoF, we have to live with the controversies over who is and isn’t rock (although trying to include disco isn’t controversial – it’s merely stupid). This is why I’m back to my idea of making it a popular music HoF. Yeah, this will open the door to some really rarefied academic arguments over the definition of “popular” – can you include important, but obscure influences?
Just for fun, let’s nominate John Cage and see if can get a fight over the definition of “music” going….